I don't agree that ancient India was a repository of all knowledge. We had extensive knowledge of mathematics; fairly good knowledge of astronomy; and some knowledge of theoretical physics. That's it.
And this knowledge was hoarded by the elite. The majority didn't know Sanskrit.
I did not mention of “All knowledge” which I understand is always being created and evolved. The knowledge level at that time was one of the highest of that times. Evidenced by the vast amount of literature surviving. Soorya sidhanta is one of them.
Of course knowledge was handled in a way different than now. That is a different issue.
25/05/2023, 21:50 - The concept of the universe as known to the layman was different from what is mentioned in the astronomical texts. They still believed in a flat earth with celestial bodies moving about in the sky.
This was not "common knowledge" - this was the work of some people detached from society. The society had no scientific temper.
25/05/2023, 21:52 - This is a wrong understanding. The flat earth was a western premodern concept.
25/05/2023, 21:53 - Europeans took time to understand the spherical nature of earth and planets.
But we’ll described in our texts as golas.
25/05/2023, 21:54 - Indian literature talks about many "talas" - atalam, sutalam, patalam - these are possible only with a flat earth
25/05/2023, 21:55 - This is not the scientific knowledge I am referring to.
25/05/2023, 21:55 - : Maybe astronomers had the correct idea. But not the society
25/05/2023, 21:56 - : And socially, it was one of the most backward. One just has to read the Manusmriti to understand that
25/05/2023, 21:56 - : The society not always have scientific ideas clearly. Did anybody in layman level know string theory now. But that is the latest theory in scientific community
25/05/2023, 21:57 - : What a pity. This was systematically destroyed by the invaders.
Our educational institutions were the most sought after in those times.
25/05/2023, 21:59 -: I am not speaking politics. Only science and technology. That is why social aspects need not be discussed
25/05/2023, 22:00 - But just for the record, I don't believe in science and technology separate from society
25/05/2023, 23:26 - *: So that I can start ! Indians, Chinese and Arabs were in the forefront of such scientific pursuits and achievements. But history and therefore, science has its turns and chruns. All these civilizations has their share of religious thought-changes which focussed more in after-life than valuing life on earth. Add the impact of industrial revolution in the western hemisphere with a coupling of state and religion, and an easy go lucky attitude in after life. The successive plunder of these civilizations by imperialist powers led not only to the erosion of material wealth and wellbeing, but also had to face the onslaught of their civilisational values. So the need to lumber in the glories of the past, it's magnanimity and not refusing to accept and import the new sciences and it's advancement had its severe impact. Despite such past glories, we have a lot to catch up and time is running against us. We need to put in place what is required for the next century and more, which is severally lacking since last few decades, save in some selected spheres. Irrespective of the scientific and honest truth about the past, we need to start living and working towards a possible future. And for this scientific temper, as enshrined in the Constitution is a must and in all spheres of governance and public affairs.
22/05/2023, 15:46 - Messages and calls are end-to-end encrypted. No one outside of this chat, not even WhatsApp, can read or listen to them. Tap to learn more.
25/05/2023, 21:03 - : <Media omitted>
25/05/2023, 21:04 - : This message was deleted
25/05/2023, 21:21 - : I don't agree with many of the things you say, but it's definitely not the stupidity that the media reported.
25/05/2023, 21:24 - : Of the books or it’s contents I said, you don’t agree?
25/05/2023, 21:28 - : I don't agree that ancient India was a repository of all knowledge. We had extensive knowledge of mathematics; fairly good knowledge of astronomy; and some knowledge of theoretical physics. That's it.
And this knowledge was hoarded by the elite. The majority didn't know Sanskrit.
25/05/2023, 21:41 - : I did not mention of “All knowledge” which I understand is always being created and evolved. The knowledge level at that time was one of the highest of that times. Evidenced by the vast amount of literature surviving. Soorya sidhanta is one of them.
Of course knowledge was handled in a way different than now. That is a different issue.
25/05/2023, 21:50 - : The concept of the universe as known to the layman was different from what is mentioned in the astronomical texts. They still believed in a flat earth with celestial bodies moving about in the sky.
This was not "common knowledge" - this was the work of some people detached from society. The society had no scientific temper.
25/05/2023, 21:52 - : This is a wrong understanding. The flat earth was a western premodern concept.
There is no flat universe concept in Indian literature
25/05/2023, 21:53 - : Europeans took time to understand the spherical nature of earth and planets.
But we’ll described in our texts as golas.
25/05/2023, 21:54 - : Indian literature talks about many "talas" - atalam, sutalam, patalam - these are possible only with a flat earth
25/05/2023, 21:54 - : This is not the scientific knowledge I am referring to.
25/05/2023, 21:55 - : Maybe astronomers had the correct idea. But not the society
25/05/2023, 21:55 - : Indian society had no scientific temper
25/05/2023, 21:56 - : And socially, it was one of the most backward. One just has to read the Manusmriti to understand that
25/05/2023, 21:56 - : The society not always have scientific ideas clearly. Did anybody in layman level know string theory now. But that is the latest theory in scientific community
25/05/2023, 21:57 - : What a pity. This was systematically destroyed by the invaders.
25/05/2023, 21:57 - : It continues still 😩
25/05/2023, 21:58 - : Ok let us stop here
25/05/2023, 21:58 - : If I continue, this discussion will become political 😉
25/05/2023, 21:58 - : No need.
Our educational institutions were the most sought after in those times.
26/05/2023, 03:54 - : My two bits. The whole story of a glorious ancient Indian civilization is nothing but a load of tripe. So is the case with our "advanced" scientific developments.
We had some brilliant mathematicians, astronomers and theoretical physicists who dreamed up their theories in isolation. Similarly, we had brilliant philosophers who could formulate the concepts of 'tat tvam asi' and 'aham brahma asmi' of the Upanishads. Our literature was terrific. There is no other epic which can come even near the Mahabharata.
But our society was an utter mess: a stinking sewage pit of non-egalitarian casteism. The vast majority at the bottom of the hierarchy were grubbing in the dirt to keep body and soul together, while the elite at the top enjoyed life without doing a single day's productive work. Society was in stasis. There was no "golden civilisation" which was destroyed by invaders.
As for Sanskrit - it is a great ancient literary language, but there is nothing special about it. And it was never the language of the common man.
In my opinion, our constant obsession with the past, and the futile quest to "rediscover" its "glories", has changed us into a bunch of fossils who can't see the inevitable darkness of our future.
26/05/2023, 04:44 - : , do I have the permission to share the video of your speech on FB? People are maligning you left and right based on that misquote, and I want to set the record straight.
26/05/2023, 07:49 - : Please do.
26/05/2023, 07:49 - : Taking pride in the past is not a crime. It is important to reassure that we are not followers, but original creators. We can become so in the future if we believe. It is the confidence in ourselves that has been broken in the past. It is not to take solace under the past glory, but to design our future we are capable as a country.
Any society that lose confidence ultimately succumb to the evil designs of the new narratives.
That is why I talk of great accomplishments of the past.
We are doing great things today in science and technology. And society is also changing to be more even with access of knowledge for all. It is a natural process enabled by technology than social revolutions. Look at internet how it made knowledge reachable to any who wants it.
26/05/2023, 08:34 - : 👍👏👏👏👏
26/05/2023, 08:39 - : 👍well said.
26/05/2023, 08:42 - : Both of u forget that years go by and some knowledge is spread by default, technology and communication. Even now real scientific knowledge remains with. Even in western society it is not different. Sometimes our society may be better positioned in this respect
26/05/2023, 08:45 - : According to me, there is nothing in our past to take special pride in. Our so-called "golden" culture is just like that of any other ancient culture. There were some advances in science, some in mathematics - but the world has moved beyond. We are still stuck in the medieval era with this cultural millstone tied around our neck.
It is this obsession with the past that leads to people looking for gold in cow urine and to use cow dung as radiation shield. Also the travesty called the Indian Science Congress.
And sorry, social changes do not come about automatically through technology. Whatever advances we made in the social arena is due to the efforts of people like Dr. Ambedkar.
26/05/2023, 08:48 - : <Media omitted>
26/05/2023, 08:57 - *: Science has many definitions. Probably the most alluring one should be "question everything", including science itself ! If this point is lost sight off, then science becomes religion. Seeking non-confirming evidence is science, and that's the most difficult part. To paraphrase, one must talk about Marxism to Vedic students, and Vedas to Marxists. One shall then see the real face and culture of both these sections. People in any controlled setting shall always behave perfect but leave them free and let them talk and act freely, then the true colours shall show.
Thinking, theorizing, thesis & anti-thesis, proof, evidence and substantiation are all part of science, but modern capitalism makes it necessary that all this be made and focussed into the production of technological tools, many times in a mass production manner, to generate profit and continue this vicious circle. All this is driven by consumerism, which itself is created scientifically and consent is manufactured. Scientific research is market-oriented now and is not science in its pure form at all. There is only an aura of such realism about it, whereas, in reality, it is exactly the opposite.
Past Indian [though not correct to term it so, since these geographical identities came much later in history] science and thought processes were not on a single track and always converging. There were different thoughts, many in diametrically opposite positions to each other. God in the centre, negating god, god-king-noble focussed as against people and farmers focussed, some only providing certain route-maps whereas others providing comprehensive step-by-step guidelines to live every aspect of the day, etc. All these, naturally, were edited, amended and debased to suit the then-social circumstances and the powers that ruled. Any only-one-style-was-there portrayal and only one language was supreme does not stand the scrutiny of scientific and historic approach, irrespective of the reality that all civilizations portray themselves and their history on the one-only-supreme model.
This is why we do not hear about D.D. Kosambi, but a lot about C.V. Raman. That's why everybody knows Vedas and Upanishads but not Buddhist / Jain philosophy. So is the case with Sanghya, Charka and hundreds of forest-dwelling, working-class and peasant philosophies and cultures.
History, civilizational values, and everyday thought processes are always manipulated by rulers; everywhere. The book "48 Laws of Power" describes these age-old practices and you will be surprised to enjoy how each "law" is still in action even today, including in India. This book can be accessed here https://bit.ly/42aCof0
As for Science, there's no One who found out or discovered a thing, but that is also a historic process and we limit it to, like saying, Shajahan built the Taj Mahal - whereas in reality he only probably commissioned it and never put a stone or applied a bit of plaster on it. The book by John Gribbin list the journey of science from the Renaissance times, how the scientists succumbed to the ruler's requirements and still carried on and how civilization values and religious truths were slowly, but surely, shattered. This book can be accessed here https://bit.ly/3BWzxf7
But we all must thank them; for they made this group lively, educating and thought-provoking.
26/05/2023, 08:59 - : No one told us that we have to take pride in social changes as a result of technology. But that does mean that u should not acknowledge the reality and history clearly.
26/05/2023, 09:01 - : This historical narrative is exactly the one I am questioning.
26/05/2023, 09:04 - : Exactly my point. We must question everything.
26/05/2023, 09:07 - : U can question. Unfortunately cultural innovations and internal alienation cussed failure in consistent continuity
26/05/2023, 09:07 - : That is why we have somany languages
26/05/2023, 09:10 - : Well said...
26/05/2023, 09:13 - : https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0WyEfaHEeLCmh7wrQzvNaMPe8HAXmWnMtioU9Zvb7ur6XfMew1TWShZiYjB7nvcHGl&id=1588342633&mibextid=Nif5oz
26/05/2023, 09:14 - : Unfortunate thing is, there is so much dissonance and disagreement about history itself. Much of it is being rewritten too.
26/05/2023, 09:16 - : History is not static. It has to be critically reviewed on a regular basis.
26/05/2023, 09:29 - : However, don't you think it needs to have a foundation of basic facts? Interpretations and points of view are needed, but isn't there a quantitative aspect too?
26/05/2023, 09:32 - : Facts are the foundation. Especially, those which can be verified from multiple sources.
But critical interpretation, by trained historians on a regular basis is required.
26/05/2023, 09:38 - : Exactly
26/05/2023, 09:39 - : Narratives with a political, nationalistic or commercial agenda should be nipped in the bud
26/05/2023, 09:41 - *: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damodar_Dharmananda_Kosambi
https://archive.org/details/MythAndReality
26/05/2023, 09:42 - : They should be countered with facts. Unfortunately, Indians tend to let emotions and deep-rooted superstitions rule them.
26/05/2023, 09:45 - : D. D. Kosambi is a great scholar. Unfortunately, his dispassionate view of the Indian reality is not palatable to the purveyors of a single Indian cultural identity.
26/05/2023, 09:49 - : https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/2011308398
26/05/2023, 09:50 - : This is a good book, albeit a tad too academic.
26/05/2023, 09:54 - : I was of the notion that we are also part of them confined to whatsapp group
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